‘Law, Order and Cannabis UK.’ Minutes from APPG meeting on 30th November 2022

November 30, 2022

15:00 - 16:00

Minutes

Present

Crispin Blunt MP

Adam Afriyie MP

Craig Mackinlay MP

Jamie Wallis MP

Damian Green MP

Adam Holloway MP

Tarsilo Onuluk (Office of Crispin Blunt MP)

External

Lisa Townsend (Guest Speaker) - Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) for Surrey

Nick Morland - Tenacious Labs

Andy Cutbill - Tenacious Labs

Alex Markland - Tenacious Labs

Renata Legierska - Tenacious Labs

Charlie Sampson - Tenacious Labs

Peter Quigley (FSA)

Monique van Tonder (FSA) 

Jamie Bartley (CIC)

Rebekah Shaman (BHA)

Jade Proudman (EIHA)

Tony Reeves (EIHA)

Marika Graham-Woods (CTA)

Sian Phillips (CTA)

Stuart Henley (CTA)

Mike Morgan-Giles (CIC)

Graham Keane (HFMA)

Steve Rolles (Transform Drugs)

Tim Henley (Canim)

Damien Bové (Adact Medical)

Simon Dusher (CBD Life)

Jonathan Betts (Just CBD Store)

David Hartigan (Hempheros)

Mark Jones (IFS Labs)

Garry Carroll (West Midlands Police)

Olivia Davies (Prohibition Partners)

Giles Gailer (Prohibition Partners)

Leslie Cash (Orange County CBD)

Ciaran Murray (Medahuman)

Anuj Desai (The Cannabis Conversation)

Patrick Gillett (Hempen)

Marcus Morely-Jones (Ecoversity)

Ben Stevens (BusinessCann)

Michael Dusher 

David Lairy 

Apologies

Apologies for absence have been received from Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt, Tommy Sheppard MP, Elizabeth Osgood (Defra), Paul Tossell (FSA) and Mike Barnes (CIC).

Welcome

Crispin Blunt MP introduces the meeting and notes that this is the APPG’s first AGM. He thanks all of the relevant parties for all of the work and progress that has been achieved by the APPG in the year to date, and puts on record his thanks to the secretariat Tenacious Labs for their human and financial capacity to make this group work well. He notes the paper produced in July as perfect evidence of the achievements of the group, which is now being presented in UK government. Nicolas Morland and Andy Cutbill are personally thanked for their efforts in creating the Secretariat Advisory Board (SAB) for the presentation of an industry view. He also notes that in this period the industry has become more professional, including bodies like the Cannabis Industry Council (CIC) and that the issue has moved from being more exotic to mainstream.

AGM Introduction

Crispin Blunt MP proposes that the appointment of the secretariat be remitted from the agenda for this meeting - this is an issue that requires further discussion amongst the officers of the group. Whether to relieve Tenacious Labs of the burden is something to be discussed over the course of the next three months. 

Crispin Blunt MP next puts forward the proposal of the change of name for the APPG, suggesting that the decision is remitted from this meeting for further discussion with the officers but asks for suggestions from the floor. He mentions the current proposal to the APPG for CBD and Hemp, and the APPG for Cannabis Industries.

Jamie Bartley states that there should be a move to talking about the plant as Cannabis Sativa, as opposed to Hemp, as when discussing the industrial uses of the plant we are talking about the Cannabis Sativa plant. Tony Reeves EIHA then asks if there would be issues around licensing if there was to be a move away from Hemp to Cannabis to which Jamie Bartley responds that they do give licences for low level THC/industrial Hemp.

Rebekah Shaman BHA states that the best way to differentiate this group from medicinal Cannabis would be to progress the conversation on Industrial Hemp. She proposes that the group be called the APPG for CBD and Industrial Hemp and states that it is ludicrous that someone wanting to grow hemp industrially struggles with Proceeds of Crime legislation.

Presentation - Law, Order and Cannabis UK: Could effective regulation of a legal cannabis sector extinguish the illicit market?

Crispin Blunt MP then introduces the next topic on the agenda and introduces Lisa Townsend, Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) for Surrey, to speak on whether effective regulation could extinguish the illicit market.

Lisa Townsend begins by bringing up the statistic that a third of all UK crime is drug related. She mentions that there are different views amongst PCCs on how this issue should be tackled, with some proposing stronger legislation and reclassification to Class A, whereas her view is that regulation in the UK is ridiculous. Given the context of budget cuts to policing in the UK, it is her view that it is essential for policing to be carried out on a threat/harm risk basis. The police force won’t be able to catch more people committing fraud, the only area of rising crime, by reclassifying Cannabis and making it harder for people to access safe, sensible drugs when they want to.

She argues that top of the chain offences are the areas that the public need most protection from harm, and that to be sensible a different approach is required with less focus on catching small time users. She believes that the majority of PCCs are in the middle of the debate, and that they are pragmatic. She also believes that public sentiment on the topic is also shifting and becoming more sensible.

Lisa then argues that the focus of policing should be on helping as opposed to punishing people, and with the rising cost of living, and the rising demand of policing, the focus should be on where their funding is best allocated. She moves on to state that in its current state, the Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) is a piece of legislation that needs to be looked at as it’s not fit for purpose in a modern UK in dealing with this issue.

Lisa states that she wants to help Crispin Blunt MP to make a difference that will help everyone, both with policing and job creation. She also shares her fascination with Colorado as a case study for how the policy could be enacted, and notes their remarks that there should be a parallel plan to reduce the activity of the illicit market in combination with dealing with the legal market.

AGM Matters

Crispin Blunt MP then proceeds with the formal matters of the AGM. He first proposes the reelection of the officers of the APPG, which is approved. He then proposes the approval of the income and expenditure statement, which is again approved. He then proposes the approval of the registration of expenses, which is also approved. He finally reiterates that the election of the secretariat and the renaming of the APPG will be remiss from this meeting.

Questions - Law, Order and Cannabis UK: Could effective regulation of a legal cannabis sector extinguish the illicit market? 

Graham Keane begins by asking Lisa Townsend whether she is in the minority of PCCs who have this more enlightened approach to Cannabis regulation and what the balance looks like. Lisa responds by stating that most PCCs are pragmatic but scared of not being reelected if they were seen to support something like this. She believes that most are persuadable and references the plan presented by Tenacious Labs as the sort of robust data and evidence that would allow them to propose changes and present the business and economic cases which speak for themselves. Crispin Blunt MP further emphasises this point in stating that this also applies to MPs, who tend to steer clear of the topic when they can envision a Mail on Sunday article. He states that it is on the industry to educate MPs on the topic, and that most parliamentarians don’t want to grapple with complexity, but if the political risk is moved, it could be seen to be riskier to do nothing.

It is then asked whether the other PCCs have received a copy of the plan, to which Lisa replies that some have, but she is happy to be the conduit to ensuring that others do.

Garry Caroll from West Midlands Police then states that Chief Constables and PCCs are not properly communicating on the best methods for policing. Lisa Townsend agrees in stating that Chief Constables and PCCs look at issues with different perspectives, and that if there is a criticism of PCCs, it is that they are looking to be reelected and will sing the tune of their constituents. There should be more discussion between PCCs and Chief Constables.

Steve Rolles then asks if we are discussing the decriminalisation of cannabis for personal use, or talking more about regulation and adult use. Lisa responds by stating that she is agnostic on the matter and argues that in its current form it is doing more harm as an unregulated product, than as a regulated product. She notes the difference between a drug like Cannabis, and other drugs like Heroin and Cocaine, again reiterating her belief that there is less harm done by Cannabis. 

Rebekah Shaman then asks how much interest and influence PCCs have, with regards to POCA, in industrial Hemp. She states that the UK is one of the lowest producers of Hemp in Europe and that the UK is behind. Lisa Townsend then replies in saying that there are 30 PCCs who are able to lobby the Home Secretary and they are able to have influence over what POCA would look like.

Craig Mackinley MP then states that he had some opportunity for CBD manufacturing in his constituency and they had a lot of issues in getting through the system. He argues that he does not want to see CBD with bad qualities being imported into the UK, and is fully behind CBD and manufacturing in the UK. He also mentions that this sentiment does not extend to legislation of cannabis, referencing his role in an APPG on Cannabis Damage.

Crispin Blunt MP makes the point that engaging individuals and MPs who have an individual company in their constituency is crucial in presenting the business case. It is hard for MPs not to take an interest when there is a specific case in their area, with a well presented business and economic case made. He also argues that the views on decriminalisation of psychoactive cannabis products are diametrically opposed to his, as he believes that better regulation would prevent child access and better control what you are able to access in terms of product.

Nicholas Morland then states that this point is regularly discussed amongst the SAB, and argues that there is a viable industry without requiring the discussion and legalisation of adult use cannabis. He argues the consensus is that we should focus on working on the elements that are uncontroversial first.

Crispin Blunt MP then introduces Peter Quigley of the Food Standards Agency (FSA), who is speaking at the next meeting of the APPG on the 25th January. He points out that the conversation on novel foods will be crucial in the potential success of the CBD industry.

Patrick Gillett (Hempen) then presents his experiences with licensing issues and how he became a poster child for how the industry has been failed with low-THC licences and issues between the classification of CBD from Hemp and CBD isolate. He argues that due to novel foods, the CBD market is being flooded with synthetic CBD, and it has led individuals to produce their own hemp industrially, which will in turn put more pressure on police forces. Lisa Townsend replies by saying that this should all be a part of the same conversation, and that PCCs can lobby the government. She reiterates her point that these low harm cases should be removed from the focus of policing to reduce their burden.

Stuart Henley, CTA, then asks how the police differentiate between Medical Cannabis for personal use and recreational Cannabis. Lisa responds by stating that this is not an issue that has been raised to her by a single Surrey police officer. It is then agreed that this is not something that is currently able to be validated by officers on the ground.

Nicholas Morland then suggests that this discussion be continued elsewhere as we had run out of time. 

The meeting is terminated at 16:03.